The Zen of Social Marketing rough

The Zen of Social Marketing: An Easier Way to build Credibility, Generate Buzz and Increase Revenue by Shama Hyder Kabani was laughable. I thought it was published back in 2006 or so when SNS such as Twitter first came out, but I found it was published in 2012, I was insulted. I paid $10 for stuff I already knew, not by learning about it in class or from working in the communications field, but from common sense. Yes, perhaps she is catering to an older audience who have limited to no experience with the internet, but even then I feel like she basically treats her audience like children. She uses her own successes as examples after each point she makes, which gives her audience the sense that this is the only way to be successful on SNS. The same social media tactic when applied to different companies will yield different results.

She goes through:

  • Marketing basics
  • The importance of having a website
  • What social media is
  • What FB, Google+, Twitter, and Linkedin are and basic functions such as adding friends and picking a twitter name
  • She talks about videos as the “next frontier” like it was something new and fantastical
  • Online etiquette- don’t be rude or annoying

I believe she views new technology through a social construction lens. There is a give and take relationship between the audience and the company, and the technology is just the medium in which a company’s messages are filtered. This relationship between the consumer and the producer gives way to new social practices online through SNS. Lucas made a good point about how Kabani doesn’t give a good sense of culture behind each platform, which is crucial to know because not all platforms are right for a company.

She does give good advice when she tells a company to “be human” (but doesn’t go on beyond a sentence or two about it) in her conclusion. These days, we like to see the authentic side of companies so we can better relate to them (authenticity taste performance- Liu). But again, this is still dependent on the company. A high end, luxury brand wouldn’t necessarily try to “be human” because it needs to seem unattainable and target a very specific audience (prestige taste performance).

Kabani also writes about the importance of credibility, yet her credibility can certainly be questioned—as Lucas pointed out, her stats are never cited. This book basically shows that you shouldn’t write a book about social media because the realm just changes way too quickly and that what you write will be outdated before you even publish it.


Rough Draft of the not so “Zen of Social Media Marketing”




Chapter 1 – Successful marketing steps: attract, convert, transform

Chapter 2 – Websites, social media integration, and blogging

Chapter 3 – Search Engine Optimization

Chapter 4 – Social media marketing: why, how to use, which to use

Chapter 5 – “Facebook”

Chapter 6 – “Twitter”

Chapter 7 – “LinkedIn”

Chapter 8 – “Google+”

Chapter 9 – Social Advertising – Groupon, LivingSocial etc.

Chapter 10 – Video (she calls this the most powerful)

Chapter 11 – Creating a social media policy for business


Technological Determinism: Chapter 4, 5-8

–       here is the technology, and here is how it affects us

Social Construction*: Blogging, Facebook, Twitter Chapter 2, 5, 6

–       how interaction on this media can help marketing a company

–       *mainly takes this approach

Social Shaping:

–       online ability to market (and be successful) comes both from technology and from people’s use of technology


–       How these processes are becoming normal in marketing

–       The way it attracts, integration, facebook



–       Shama stresses the fact of having a good foundation and being honest with clients/customers/audience



–       creating the brand, individualization

–       who are you?

–       Website construction, Social media use, and blogging


Audience for the book:

–       Older generation

–       Little to no experience using SNS

–       Business owners that need help transitioning in the new age of technology driven markets


–       Terribly boring book, not interesting

–       Too intensive on information that is already clear/obvious

–       Very self-promotional

–       Facts/statistics in the book are not supported

Book Reevyou Ruff Draffed: Six Pixels of WHO GIVES A…

Lordy Lordy Lordy, I really didn’t dig this book. This wont be how I start my review, btw, just thought I’d give some “blog-gy” style exposition on this rough draft before posting some more boring bullets and notes.

This book is like, so bad, though.

I mean, not just in its content. Honestly, if I ever wanted to start a low-tier, soon-to-be-bankrupt online business this book may be of some value. Also, if you’re 100 years old and saying the word “blogger” is as silly as speaking Chinese to you..then maybe you will get some pleasure out of this read.


Am I allowed to say “douche-bag” on here? Cause THIS GUY looks like a total douche-bag, and while I shouldnt judge a person (OR BOOK) by its cover, I can instantly tell, MERELY BY THE FACT THAT ON SOME LEVEL HE THOUGHT THIS PHOTO WOULD BE A GOOD IDEA, that he and I are on COMPLETELY separate wavelengths.

But blah blah, I’m sure he’s really nice and the photo was his agent’s idea or something yeah yeah. But still, very disheartening.

I want to talk about a book by Pierre Bayard called “How to talk about books you havent read.” It is a KILLAH book, and really changed my entire perspective on reading, knowledge, language, life, love, sex, death, rock & roll and so on. I think his theories, although not discussed in our class, are extremely relevant and intellectual when doing an actual book review. Here’s a snippet of what he has to say, or…er…how I am going to say what he says:

In college I read a book called “How to Talk About Books You Haven’t Read” by Pierre Bayard, in which he dissects the process of reading and tries to figure out what it truly means to read in the context of culture and the human experience. He argues that reading is not just acquiring knowledge or acquainting oneself with a text, but rather it is the inevitable process of forgetting. “If after being read a book immediately begins to disappear from consciousness, to the point where it becomes impossible to remember whether we have read it, the very notion of reading loses its relevance since any book, read or unread, will end up the equivalent of any other.” Taking Bayard’s theory into consideration, it seems like books really don’t matter if you eventually forget every last shred of their content. So, does it matter if what we read is fact or fiction if eventually we’re going to forget all about it? Is there ever a reason to tell the truth in writing if your words will only live in someone’s consciousness for a fleeting moment in time and then be forgotten?

As someone who considers himself pseudo-intellectual, this idea really gets my brain all in a frenzy and I think, conceptually, it has a place in any writing about a text.

As far as class readings are concerned, I think Liu’s take on taste performances and the type of statements we make is a great understanding of the cultural behavior. It doesnt REALLY relate to our book a lot, but I want to play up the subtle connections between theory and “practice” (but this book isnt really “practice”…really).

I also think some SMALL case-studies of brands that use social media well (like we did in class) would be nice to compare to the book and see what advice the book gives that they AREN’T using. (for the lolz!)


Crush It Review Rough Draft

In his book Crush It: Why Now is the Time to Cash in On Your Passion, Gary Vaynerchuk gives a strong pep talk about why your job should have something to do with what you truly love, and why you should leave that job if it doesn’t. His main argument is that in the current state of the online world, if you make content about anything you are strongly passionate about, it will attract other people, and therefore money. To prove this point, he shares his own story of how he went from working in his immigrant father’s liquor store to running a multi-million dollar business, and how social media and adaptability helped this happen. In other words, then, he explains that with passion and a willingness to adapt to change, social media has created an environment where almost anyone could make money.

Given the subject matter of ‘anyone can be successful,’ this book seems to be written for a general audience of people who may not be happy with their jobs, or even if they are, are looking for some kind of change in their life. Because of this, Crush It never goes into any specifics of a social media plan, and even mentions that you should not “…put on an act to try to imitate me or anyone else who’s had some success with social marketing. You will lose because people can sniff out a poser from a mile away” (42). This single sentence, in fact, is the basis for everything else that Vaynerchuk talks about in the book. Aside from your passion and the business need for adaptability, authenticity is the most important quality in the social media space, he says.

Part of being successful at promoting whatever kind of brand you may have on social media, he says, is understanding that sites like Twitter and Facebook are more about establishing relationships with your customers, fans, and followers than selling anything in particular. He points to his own use of Twitter, where he says, “Can you imagine how obnoxious I’d look if I sent out tweets every day urging that call to action? Instead, I use the other tools in my toolbox to bring viewers back to my blog, where I knock their socks off with my content, which inspires them to hit the “Buy My Book” call-to-action button and convert a blog visit into a chance to further build my brand and my revenue” (68). In other words, there is a time and a place to make a hard sell for things, but if you do this all the time on social media, people will feel the ‘phoniness’ of it, and most likely be less inclined to buy something from you, or even worse, might stop following you in the first place.

Vaynerchuk is not alone in discussing this issue of online authenticity. Because of the virtual nature of the online world, authenticity is a factor that cannot be ignored in any discussion of social media. In fact, Marwick and boyd mention a similar balance to what Vaynerchuk is explaining, as they write, “For Twitter users trying to build audience, personal authenticity and audience expectations must be balanced. To appeal to broad audiences, some popular Twitter users maintained that they had to continually monitor and meet the expectations of their followers.” (126). In other words, the rules of balancing different types of messages online is not only a business concern, but holds true for social media use in general.

While Vaynerchuck’s messages certainly do hold true in many degrees, I think the idea that simply being authentic on social network sites and creating content about something you love will not necessarily lead you to success. Someone could be extremely passionate about cooking and film themselves baking cakes in an authentic, unedited way, but if they do not offer anything particularly interesting, people are not going to be drawn to them. Vaynerchuck mentions that you have to offer something unique and different from everyone else, but I think with that comes both the fact that it must be interesting and you have to have some knowledge of how to promote it aside from just setting up a Twitter account and tweeting.

Overall, I’d say the book is a good jumping point for anyone who is just getting started with what could be the scary land of social media, as it certainly points out some good pro-tips that people just starting out might not realize. This, along with the amount of excitement the book instills, could definitely get someone who hates their current job motivated to try something new, but I think a little more detail about what to do once you’re online would make a great supplement to Crush It.

Book Review Draft: Six Pixels of Separation

  • Target audience appears to be those who are older, small business owners, and looking to further online visibility
  • Content is much more directed to what should be down, as opposed to how it should it be done
  • Despite being published in 2009, the focus seems to solely be blogs, as opposed to the other burgeoning platforms of the time
  • Offers false hope since it hypes people up to believing that things are simple and possible
  • The book focuses too much on the positive, and does not discuss what to do with negativity
  • Emphasis seems to be that the network already exists although these are people who do not seem likely to possess such a vast network
  • Statement that “This new economy is driven by your time vested and not by your money invested” is incredibly problematic
  • The book has no actual structure and very disjunct
  • Though the title is catchy, there is little reason for the “pixels” apart from it being catchy and digital
  • Relation to any theories seems weak, especially since there is little explanation on why things will happen – there is the assumption that they just will

Rough Draft for Crush It

Apologies in advanced for how rough this is:  There is method in my madness.

Blog 4

Crush It by Gary Vaynerchuck

-Structured as social construction – points out what you can do on social media sites, but it already exists offline.  Uses technology to enhance what already exists

“Social media tools—Facebook, Twitter, Flickr, and all the rest—are modern-day galleons that will carry you to the new world, allowing you to share your passion, differentiate yourself from your competitors, and deliver your brand to the broadest possible audience.”

-Speaks about authenticity:  “don’t lie to yourself

Do you have any idea how many people introduce themselves to me with, “Hi, I’m going to be the next Oprah”? I’m all about being confident, and I respect anyone who’s got big ambition. But let’s face it, not everyone is going to be Oprah. Everyone has the ability to achieve great self-awareness, but we all occasionally lie to ourselves. Some of us, however, lie to ourselves more than others.”

“Whether you’re delivering your content by video, podcast, or blog, it’s the authentic you, the one thing that is guaranteed to differentiate you from everybody else, including those who share your niche or business model. “


1) Construct a profile
2) Articulate a network
3) View networks

Public display of connections you have

Ties are bidirectional or unidirectional

Unidirectional ties:

“Now, if she’s got a Twitter account, she can tell five thousand people that she just read your hilarious blog post about breeding Siamese cats. And since those aren’t just five thousand random people, they’re five thousand people who have deliberately told your Twitter reader they want to hear what she thinks, chances are superb that a good percentage of them are going to be curious enough to check out your blog for themselves. And like in a brick-and-mortar business, half the battle is getting them in the door. If they like you, many will turn right around and repost your reader’s comment to all of the people following them.”

differentiate yourself:

“These social networking sites have only changed the game by giving entrepreneurs a reason to ditch the sinking traditional media and advertising platforms in favor of a communication method that opens them up to markets that would have been inaccessible until just a few short years ago.

The thing is, just having a presence on these platforms doesn’t get you any further ahead of the competition because most entrepreneurs are getting wise to the need of having a Twitter and Facebook account, not to mention all the other platforms we’ve discussed. So how are you going to differentiate yourself from all the other clowns? You’re going to do your content better, and you’re going to do it your way using the tools we just discussed.”

^ Boyd/Donaf:  Performance dimension; trying to present an image of yourself to others  (Front stage/back stage).

Front stage: you are what the author speaks about; you’re going to act better than the rest

Back stage: it’s possible that you know very little but confidence will trick the “audience”

Audience of book: anyone with a passion or an idea or drive.  He constantly claims anyone can be successful using social media as long as the passion is there.

Liu Taste Statements:

Prestige statements:  communicating that I fit in to (This culture) mainstream, subculture, etc  (His example, cooking blogs where you are like everyone else)

Authenticity:  Subtle cues through taste that you are authentic (Showing honesty in your cooking blogs; posting cooking disasters and lack of knowledge)

Theatrical persona:  exaggerated to the point where it’s self evidently false.Trying to be funny  (Ex: Perez Hilton is an extreme persona that is trying to be funny)

boyd: Performances of self with audience in mind; who is in our audience doesnt matter; who we constructed in our heads as audience that matters

“Your DNA dictates your passion—whatever it is you were born to do; being authentic, and being perceived as such by your audience, relies on your ability to ensure that every decision you make when it comes to your business is rooted in being true to yourself.”

Weber/Mitchell:  – We’re seeking questions about our identity. Figuring out who we are and what we’re trying to tell other people

-We look at ourselves through new eyes (Youtube comments on our videos; maybe we modify ourselves based on feedback).  We discipline ourselves in response.

“brand yourself in the public eye with an identity that is separate from that of the corporation”


-Simon Higgins


Book Review Draft: The Tao of Twitter

Book review of The Tao of Twitter by Mark Schaefer

Structure & Content of book:

  • Easy-read, in the style of a “how-to” manual
  •  The Tao: the ‘way’ or path/principle
  • 3 Taos:
    • Targeted Connections: who you reach out to, with whom you connect with
    • Meaningful Content: quality of tweet > quantity of tweet
    • Authentic Helpfulness: authenticity & generosity can help form better and more effective connections
      • achieving the 3 Taos will help you succeed in networking and more importantly, in business
  • P2P Connections: Person to Person connections; be human

Key Concepts as related from the course to the book:

  • Technological Determinism : the way technology is “using us” (Baym)
    •  greater expansion in business, new connections, and social benefits may not be achieved if one doesn’t use Twitter.
    • Without Twitter –> mundane tweets would not have been created (“Go Steelers!”) –> random follower would not have replied to Schaefer’s tweet –> no establishment of new friendship –> no establishment of positive business relationship.
  • Social Capital: resources accumulated from interactions and social relationships (Elllison, Steinfield, Lampe)
    • Bridging–> using Twitter and following strangers can result in helpful resources (tweeting links, blogs, or videos)
    • Bonding–> tweeting @ at follower or replying a tweet, Direct Messaging, answering questions can help establish new connections
  • Media Mutiplexity: using multiple forms of social media to maintain connections (Haythornthwaite)
    • Latent Ties–> you can activate possible new relationships with anyone you’re following or is following you by retweeting one’s tweet, mentioning them, DM. i.e., replying to the “Go Steelers!” tweet
    • Weak Ties–> sharing useful information to your followers or taking advantage of others’ shared resources; infrequent communication
    • Strong Ties–> Schaefer emphasizes maintaing connections through multiple forms of social media: following each other on blogs, commenting, calling by phone, emailing, meeting in person
      • turning latent ties to weak or strong ties
      • take online connections to offline = stronger relationships!
  • Taste Performances: (Liu)
    • Authenticity–> Schaefer emphasizes in being authentic and “real”, being human
      • don’t be all about business & marketing, include mundane and everyday tweets so others can relate to you
      • being human also means helping others out regularly, answering tweets and replying to mentions ASAP; sharing interesting and helpful links
      • don’t invest in accounts with pre-made followers; gain REAL followers even if it takes more time
      • make sure your account/profile reflects YOU
    • Prestige–> importance of keeping your followers and profile cleanly sculpted and neat
      • clean out your follower’s list: delete or block any spammers following you as they may  negatively affect your outlook
      • follow others who appear similar to you or have similar interests
      • follow those who fit the description of your ideal targeted consumer


  • People new to Twitter
    • lists guidelines
    • in the style of  a”how-to” manual
    • breaks down “technological” terms (hashtag, RT, etc) in easy-to-understand language
    • uses personal anecdotes
  • People looking for networking purposes
    • how to establish new connections
    • how to gain followers
    • how to maintain connections

Ethical Implications:

  • Don’t be overly forceful when marketing
    • don’t constantly tweet about your product
    • include more mundane topics so people can see you’re authentic
  • Be generous to others
    • be helpful in answering questions and providing help/feedback to others

Personal Critiques:

  • book doesn’t mention the downsides of using Twitter
  • doesn’t talk about potential risks of how others may interpret user’s tweets
    • Nightmare Readers
    • Negatives of Context Collapse
  • places responsibility solely on the user and not on the social platforms
  • only mentions following, seeking out, and establishing connections with those  who are SIMILAR to users
  • only promotes the advantages of Twitter usage
  • briefly mentions how Twitter is not for everyone, but doesn’t provide strong reasoning behind it
    • more like a, “use Twitter at your own risk” kind of precaution

Blog Post Book Review

Gail Martin definitely knows how to market herself. Amazon review after Amazon review raves about her book, 30 Days to Social Media Success , because of the ease and applicability of information within. Perhaps, in 2010 this guide was sensible. But today, you may say it’s a bit outdated. Regardless of the nature of the text being outdated, Martin does an effective job gearing her book to a certain audience: small business owners who are very unfamiliar with the internet, so much so that they need a how-to guide for creating a Facebook account and even a guide to uploading a profile picture. Though many feel she was successful at teaching people to use social media, her ideas with implementing them into a business model includes many contradictions and information that will not work unless it is incorporated across business platforms outside of the internet. The book was too dumb to effectively accomplish anything or assist business wise.

Martin begins by sharing insights on her belief of success and how this book will assist in achieving success through social media. She displays her expertise by telling us all about herself and how smart she is and how much she knows because of how long she has been working with businesses and social media. Then, she delves into specifics with each type of social media platform and ensures that 30 minutes each day dedicated to each chapter will help improve their business through the use of social media. Then, after going through each type of media platform available online (in 2010…) we hear her advice as to why this will help and how to effectively market, use P.R. and reach consumers through the web. All of this results in SALES. As Martin says, success is defined by, “being in the right place at the right time to meet with people interested and able to purchase your products or services.”

Throughout her guide to using social media, we can associate a lot of her ideas for using social media in a business setting with certain social media theories. At one point, Martin explains a very important aspect of a business with a social media presence: having a “true voice” and “real story” to create an authentic feel for the company. Incorporating true stories about the business’ history on their social networking sites,  allows customers to sense the authenticity and honesty in their business. Though this is a very important aspect that most small businesses incorporate, Martin never considers the fact that a business must coincide across all platforms. If they are not authentic within their store, or if the history of their company and the “real story” or “true voice” is not a large component of their current business model, incorporating it on social media gives false hope and ideas of what the business is about to customers. It can become deceiving. This can then be considered performance of the Authenticity taste preference according to Liu. The Real Voice and True Story may create a sense that the company is very authentic and honest yet, it may be a performance verses a reality.  Will customers see through this?

Similarly, much of what Martin informs her reader is ineffectively targeting her target. Is Martin speaking to a business owner or employee or is she speaking to a regular person? Her main audience is people wishing to implement a social media strategy to help further their business. Though this can mean anything from a corporation to a small business, it is obvious much of her information is tailored to smaller businesses. However, the idea that she is targeting smaller businesses is more obvious because of her vagueness. Indirectly, whether her audience includes small business owners or larger businesses anticipating the use of social media, this book is truly just a guide, for anybody outside of a business setting or within a business setting to learn how to use social media somewhat effectively.

Similarly, because her target is not narrowed down she contradicts herself. Her advice with reach is that social media can effectively create buzz about a company. This is very true. If a company is using social media to reach their customers about a specific event then, according to Martin, people want to be “in the know,” so they share information with friends and the company then has the potential to reach many people. Then, in a later chapter, Martin contradicts herself by basically saying quality is not quantity.  If a company wants reach, they can use social media, but indirectly Martin’s addresses the idea that consumers may not truly be participating through social media with the company therefore, it may be ineffective. Though this is what Martin means, she is very vague and hardly goes into detail. Therefore, it is clear what she means being someone in the know about social media, but those learning may find her to be confusing.

The most disappointing part of Drake’s book was her lack of enforcing the use and practice of social media daily. She includes well over fifteen platforms that she expects the reader to learn for one 30 minute segment over the full 30 day learning experience her book provides. Though this does allow the reader to explore his options, it does not allow him to accustom himself fully with each specific platform. In order to truly learn social media, you must take the time to play around on a site, explore and learn on your own. She never once mentions the idea that we need to participate in social media before we can effectively use it for business. If a business owner cannot navigate his own personal Facebook page, how will he successfully navigate his business’ page? Similarly, it is not effective for a business, especially a small business (since we are convinced that is who she is targeting to whether it was her original target) to realistically use all of the social media platforms she uses successfully. It is very unrealistic. The book also feels unrealistic because not once do we hear a personal story of Drake’s experience with social media. Instead we receive a brief and unrealistic portrayal of how to successfully incorporate social media into your business.

“30 Days” Book Review Outline

I. Thesis: In her book, 30 days to Social Media Success, marketing expert Gail Z. Martin discusses how to achieve social media success in an extremely basic way that is targeted to an older generation who did grow up with the Internet as an integral part of life and business; her lack of detail and use of generalizations weaken what could have potentially been a more useful book for a larger scope of people.

II. Summary of book’s content and format 

  •  Goal to “rethink, reenergize, and restart social media marketing”
  • R.E.S.U.L.T.S.
  • Ch. 1-7: Ensuring marketing strategy aligns with business goals
  • Ch. 8-21: How to use social media to promote businesses
  • Ch. 22-30: Ties together business goals and social media strategy
  • Discussion of intended audience

III. Strengths: How the book reflects popular social media discourse and course concepts

  • Martin highlights the domestication discourse (Baym)
  • Idea of a real story and a “true voice” – addresses inauthenticity  (Baym)
  • Using social media for business purposes calls attention to Beers’ critique of boyd and Ellison – economic components, critique of capitalism, etc.

IV. Weaknesses: How the text contradicts or ignores course concepts

  • Discrepancies about what qualifies as social media (boyd & Ellison, Donath) and what it is used for (“On Facebook, it’s ok to talk to strangers…” vs. Ellison, Steinfield, & Lampe)
  • Assumes all consumers and businesses will engage in media multiplexity (Haythornthwaite)
  • Does not address different types of ties and social capital each site fosters (Baym; Ellison, Steinfield, & Lampe)
  • Does not encourage participant observation of different social media profiles before diving in to use the sites for business purposes (Nardi)
  • Approaches social media marketing with somewhat of a slacktivist attitude (Kendzior)

V. Conclusion/Final Opinions

Draft: 30 Days to Social Media Success

Main points in the book:

  • Author Gail Martin takes a domestication approach (with a marketing angle)when it comes to social media. equating it to being a cost-efficient advertisement platform
  • “RESULTS” acronym signifying “Recommit, Expect success, Seek partners, Understand your audience, Look for win-win scenarios, Take strategic action, Stay visible”
  •  Social Networking Sites=power, how to “harness” that power
  • Don’t let SNS use you, take advantage of it for results
  • Reconnect with old colleagues, friends, clients to expand reach
  • Meet other possible clients and partners online
  • Don’t be a social media pariah, or “orphan” as Martin puts it
  • Allow your company to come across as more of a personality, and less of a brand
  • Make personal connections with those online (goes back to being a “person” online and convincing authenticity)
  • Invest time in social media, allocate at least 30 minutes a day
  • Those you choose to retweet or befriend is more telling about you than them
Big picture:  Marketing guidelines and tips presented in Martin’s book could relate back to one’s everyday social usage of their social media too. The same way that a company tries to sell you a product through SNS is the same way you try to sell (or I guess “convince”) others your identity.

Criticism of the claims:

  • Hiring one social media guru is not enough to maintain all of the SNS Martin proposes
  • Martin seems to paint over her points with broad strokes without even giving concrete examples or advise. i.e. Martin advises to add 30 people/followers a day on Facebook and Twitter. How will a small unrecognizable company garner followers and friends if you and I usually do not befriend/follow names we don’t know?
  • 30 Days for results, but what about after the 30 days? How do you sustain the “success” after the 30 days? Author fails to address.
  • Author does not define what “success” in social media means. On one hand she says don’t reach too high if you’re a small company, but in the later chapters she pushes you to take your social media to global scale
  • Author approaches each social media site with the same methods, but LinkedIn should be handled much differently than, say, YouTube
  • Digg is kind of, a little, really, super outdated